Living Room 

Have Forza’s Wheel Updates Made It Better or Worse? (Living Room Racers #3)

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hello everybody and welcome to the thirdepisode of the living races podcastliving room races podcast sorry I amjoined today by Jo saw Devon say hellohello everyone good to be back as usualand special guest to us muddy gamerhi guys later so we've got a lot to tuckinto today but before we do that we'rejust gonna have a quickly weekly roundupas to what's been going on in all thingssim racing so eSports qualifying forround five for the LeMond esports serieson motor forza motorsport 7 concludedwe've jo soares very own jota commandoearning his fourth position poleposition in the series for a europeanregion a feat that no one elseapparently in the world has managed todo so massive accomplishment for him thetop 10 qualified drivers were split byonly tens hips of a second over was a 1minute 45 second track so far tighterthan what we've seen in previous roundsas well as any other esports series onthe game as he dick scored pole positionfor that asia region along with ourco-founder for jsraviator taking 5th position so we lookforward to seeing them in the race inthe coming weeks on to project cars oneof jo soares latest recruitsAiden otherwise jsr 8 the race showedhis talent in the finale of the IORapex online racing leagues in seoulitesLMP 3 championship on project cause tosecuring his first place finish and nowthe champion for the series so well doneSweden and it's brilliant knowing thathe's managed to accomplish this so soonoff to Jordan our team and we expect tosee him and fellow protocols drivers whoI made their even great things in 2019and in 4 4 to 7 the IRL Maseratichampionship so the six weeks longMaserati championship by online racingleague on Forza 7 came to an end lastThursday with a dramatic turn of eventsthat mirrored every realm preceding itwe have changed championship leader AMStico disconnecting on the second-to-lastlap of the race at LeMans lasar handingthe championship to competitor TOSSpectre I had the good fortune ofcommentate in the series we'veCPR zermatt on William TV and it wasjust an insane tournament from start toend so if anyone missed out make sure tocatch up all the action or my MTV racesofficial YouTube page where you canwatch the entire series and that myfriends is our weekly roundup take itaway Devon alright so the reason we hada quick round up is because and also thesame reason that we've got muddy on lonjoining us is we are wanting to talkabout his recent defection from Forzanow being a wheel user he will have a hemight have the reasons that we hadn'tthought of as to why that's happened andhe did make a video on the topic so I'vegot a general idea but just for some ofyou guys who don't know and then we'vegot John who's pretty much just a fallsa player so he's got the outsideperspective whereas myself I've alsokind of defected a bit from Forza so Ican share a bit of Marty's muddy servefeelings but yeah so but he just go inlet everyone know why exactly he orstruggling with falls at the moment andreally struggling to like stay in lovewith it well I think forces being aroundnow for quite quite some time I meanthey've put off Forza right and they'vegot this great idea about they're nowgonna change 407 and adapt et cetera butpeople like me they've been racing sinceday one 407 and they've got used to thewheel mechanics and I was beingcompetitive in the LeMans eSports seriesand they released one update and it sortof took all the control settings that Ihad got used to the IDE there were lotalmost second nature to me and theythrown him out the window so then I hadto work really hard weave like commandofor example command I was on a wheelwith me and we were trying to work stuffout and we got to a good set of settingsin a second update which was horriblebecause even on if you took hands offthe wheelthe on center rotation of the wheelwould just it would just vibrate andspin and if you let go the car would gooff the route right off the trackcompletely and thenthat put me probably seven times asecond off my original pace which is abig hit for someone that is workedreally hard in the last two years to trynot my pace joining tus that the wholeprovider of joining a race team was totry and increase my pace I was quick butI wasn't fast so when I got the offer tojoin tus through my channel it was toget faster so then when I've gained thatseven tenths of a second and then I'vehad it taken away from me because of acontroller input effectively that wassickening and then they'd done it againand he got to the point where I just gotfed up we're trying to find settings forme to enjoy the game again he's sort oflike if I was to give either of you guysa Playstation controller to play Forzaand I asked you to lap the same as youdid with that Xbox controller it'd taketime and you'd have to find a settingsright absolutely I think so that'sexactly correct yeah I think that'sexactly what would be horribly laboriousyeah it's it's labor intensive it's timeintensive and when you're trying to runlive streams and you're trying to I'm afamily man trying to run a family sothat the YouTube channel trying to be afast member of your team all thesethings when they're that's in it I meandon't get me wrongthere is still a little bit of love forForza for the beautiful game I've been abig fan of Forza since Forza 5 which isdifferent to most people I joined Forzastrictly on a will I bought TX race willand loved Forza enjoyed it away for thesix was a lot lighter on the wheel butstill I was competitive and enjoyed inhit leaderboards but yeah I'm justfinding that Forza Fermina is it's justnot enjoyable to use the wheel we'reknocking go over to something likeproject cars which I do enjoy with thewheel I've always enjoyed really willand hasn't necessarily I didn't beforehave the community now the communityseems to be moving over guys I don'thave you've seen that amongst otherYouTube videos have been coming out buteven people like Mergen eyaMatt gaming for examplehe's moved away from Forza now and he'sgun playing project cars - no can ayourself Devon we're all slowly movingaway from this game that's now a littlebit long in the tooth for them to bechanging core things like force'fundamentals was meant to be a goodupgrade and it just wasn'tI think forces wheel uses is a better ornotjuxtaposition for the game because Imean controller it is so picked up andplaying you don't have to changeanything you'll be finefire off all the racing games I'veplayed Forza is the only one we have toreally buckle down and do your wheelsettings - you have it to be enjoyableevery other game I've played projectcars project calls won the set of coursea dirt Gran Turismo all of that it'slike you get on the wheel you're gonnahave to change a few force-feedbacksettings here and there but you don'thave to do everything so laborious lyyou're gonna be able to play it straightaway like Gran Turismo I haven't changedanything like literally nothing and it'sfun it's the same with dudes it'sproject cars I've made a few changeshere and there but yeah I find it quiteironic that the game that is supposed tobe the easiest to play is the hardest toget lease to on the wheel well for mesee I don't know about you John but forme it's the fact that they've also don'twant to label himself as a sim but sowhy then try and change the will physicsto replicate a sim does that make senseto you guysyou know in a way in a way yeah becauseI think what they should be looking todo is try and level the playing fieldbetween the wheel and my controller nowmaybe doing it mid mid lifecycle of agames probably not the best idea theyshould do it for like the newest gamecoming out and then just say hey guysnow you can be competitive and either awe all controller because you know onceyou're playing on the wheel and you'reable to bereally good on it it is a bit of a bitof a game changer and it makes things alot more fun as I can say fromexperience with playing like projectcars quite a lot so you know if I couldplay for is on the wheel I probablywould but at the moment it's just nothappeningso I think they like kind of going aboutit maybe the wrong way and trying toexperiment on a game that's already outbut yeah I think something to bear inmind is like you know any time thestudio is investing their resources into make it an update that's becausethere's always like a business incentivebehind it and I think although it seemsawkward for force in this particularinstance because you know it's been outfor effectively two years now they haveconfirmed that falls rate isn't consumedyeah it's fairly updated so you wouldn'tthink there should be massive overhaulshowever the money sports series you knowthey're started last year but it'sactually picking up more and moreattention now and if there's one thingwe're noticing before is is that it isactually trying to position itself assomething a bit more serious alongsidethe likes of for Surrey sports serieswhat project cars are doing a set ofcourse are erasing the whole lot andbecause I think it does work a lot ofthe studio knowing that most peoplerefer to it as a sim guide as opposed toan actual motorsport game so I thinkknowing the future of competition eventswill probably involve wheels I thinkthat's why lateral indicator to it theit's just such a shame the the actualrelease of this update has completelyknocked off a bunch of players that forany other reason they'd be thrilled tohave it so say like you know if he wasable to plug in your game and realizedit was only a few tweaks and it actuallygave you a much smoother experienceI'm sure muddy in your perspective youwould actually be really happy oh yeah Ithink in this instance it's just not thecase well they think the thing thatannoyed me the most is they're clearlyknew that the Lamoni Sport Series washappening they knew that that'shappening and they also clearly know theLamoni sport series based around a wheelat the end when you get to the finalsit's based around the wheelso they know this is happening now I'mso I'm taking myself out of thissituation because I stopped after thesecond set of updates because I wasindle in my nice book series and theworld changes stopped me beingcompetitive but think of someone likecommandoalright so commando has now qualifiedone X amount of races he's doneamazingly but the will sentence thathe's using now to practice for the liveevents will probably be different thanthe Wilson's that you'll be using at thelive events that is not good there isnowhere near good a problem be not waituntil the end of the LeMond esportsseries which you do know is happeningand then release these so the guys thatare out there at the top levelI'll campaign that are representingForza in the eSports theater can do agood job without having to worry aboutspending hours sorting out theirsettings as well as tuning their cars aswell as learning the track it's it'sjust compounding things that people likecommando and Mitch and Roadrunner andall these people the top level eSportsdrivers in Forza are now gonna have todo while this events going on it's notit's not good timing if it wasn't ityeah that's a great pointyeah I agree because we've seen it notjust in Lemont but for SRC as well likeconvenience is incredibly important ifyou want to keep that retention ratecycle a Pettit as high and we have seenthe drop-off like dramatically with theLeMond eSports seriously but to be fairand it was a bold move by a Forza andmotorsport network who are like thecompany behind the Lamoni sports seriesyes it was known to actually go withthis set up of wills like not manypeople were happy with it I personallythink it's a great idea we shouldactually try and provide and facilitatethat option for people who want a moreauthentic experience as you said moneyyou literally started forzar on a wheeland you are in such a minority there andI think that's actually a shame itshouldn't be the case it's just you knowthere has to be yeah this is this isfalling off of a trowel of bad updateyes enforcer and it's not looking goodfor 2019 like they're actually damagingthe reputation that quite frankly hasalready been a little bit shoddy for forso seven like four or six come near thelatter half of it people were very happywith how it was lookingyeah like mechanically speaking I thinkI'm however seven seems to have justtripped over itself and we're seeing itagain here unfortunately because of whathappened with the community to the endof 406 they've taken it as oh that'sokay to do that whereas it's not okay todo that we accepted that you've donethat towards the end before the SIG'sbecause they were things that needed tobe done but when you release a gamethat's not complete call it four toseven and then you're still updating ittwo years later there is somethingdrastically wrong there with yourrelease date schedule you shouldn't yesI agree yeah just a pin on that likeused to are the wheel drivers but likemuddy why was the reason you actuallydecided to start a racing game with awheel like did is that something thatyou done before you ever entered foursno it was alright so I love racing Ilove go-karting I love taking a carround a track for me if I'm playing on aand I'm not taking anything away fromthat anyone that's really fast on acontroller you do that you're brilliantfor me I can't do that so you'rebrilliant but for me it's the feelingyou get when you grab a bit of snapoversteer or you manage to ace that apexcarried a speed through and come up tothe next corner in the right line andyou've carried all that extra weightthat you're getting through your forcefeedback though that's the thing thatthat that's annoyed me the most is Idon't know what the cars doing now onForza so much so that I don't streamForza Weaver will anymore and that's abig thing considering I've beenstreaming for with a will since I couldstream on YouTube it's I love I lovedriving your branding I love driving Ilove driving I love driving my littlehot hatch that I've got to go to workand I love driving my 2.2 turbo dieselthat I've got as a family car I lovedriving everything about driving I loveapart from traffic normal odds trackbut I love driving and so when I amplaying a racing game I want to bedriving that racing guy I was justtalking to Devin about the Grand Tourgame completely off the subject butselect tool - Devin I said the physicsare crapyou can't change the view but it's an OKarcade game that's what I expect to havean arcade game I expect physics to becrap and you'd be in chase camp but ifyou can play a game where you can put iton cockpit view and the physics arefairly good I'm going to be one to playthat in a will because it gives you thatexperience but when you catch that snapoversteer when you hit the apex you getthat you just get that really goodfeeling and you know your tech you knowyou're carrying speed you can feel thatyou're carrying speed it's not thatyou're looking at your car on it on ascreen you're in the car you're part ofthat car you're a burst it's thatimmersion that's probably the easiestway of me saying it it's being immersedin a game that made me want to pick upfours and plate on a wheel I love fullit was a beautiful game but they've justgone away from me now to be honestthere's like a lot of MV that summons inme because you guys have a will andthat's what I want and it's it's thefunding and knowing that there's a lotof work that goes into it to set it upthat puts me off and I think I speak fora majority there that's what theprobably the key reason what a lot ofpeople don't go into it whereas for youDevin you know people have no need toplay Forza for a long time youeventually started veering into the ideaof I might actually pick up a wheel andI'll try it on for and if I don't likeit they are made to write on anothergame so what was the journey like foryou Devin in terms of being someone whonever drive river wheel and then havingto venture into it well for me I startedon the wheel and project cars so like Iinitially had that good sort of input asa first impression so that when I wentback to Forza onto the wheel it feltrubbish I hated itlike so much so that I actually did astream the one time that was it was likethe last time I will ever use a wheeland for thewas so unpleasant and like I saidearlier maybe I could sort out thosesettings but it's it shouldn't be aquestion of having to sweat for hoursjust to try and find settings I foundmediate that filled media I get to meyou can pick up SM and it'll feel goodpretty much straight away it'll be moreunforgiving but it'll feel good stilland it was the same thing with GranTurismo except Gran Turismo started onthe controller and I saw how much fasteror how quickly Super GT matched histimes that he was getting on thecontroller after hundreds and hundredsof hours how quickly he got to that paceon the wheel it took him about ten hoursso I thought no I'm not gonna play thisgame again on the controller I'm notwilling to put in there much time tojust become media icon controller so I'mjust gonna wait till I get a wheel andlo and behold I found a wheel that waslike the best best deal ever so I boughtdad's and I've got two wheels one forXbox one for controller so yeah for meit's it's one of those things are youknow don't like Forza we all probablywon't ever like fours on the wheelunless they make some drastic changeswith Forza aids but like we said earlieras well you don't want it to be done midmid game and you don't also want it tobe done in a way that actually makesthings worse for the cars I mean there'sa small population of guards who areusing the wheel pushing Forza right backis a great idea because what they shouldbe doing now is getting away fromadapting 407 and getting it to any sortof wherever they wanted to put it theyshould now be working on fours rates sothey can actually hit that release datebecause I'm really worried as a consumerthat they're gonna release Forza rightin exactly the same state as theyreleased Forza 6 and 7I mean I love Forza it's a beautifulgame but it seems to be that they'rethat they're doing the Call of Dutyslight they they release horizon and inthey release motorsport and you can'treally call it motorsport anymore I meanwhat's your thoughts on that the factthat it doesn't have a penny system thefact that they don't go spec markers thefact that you haven't got licensing Iknow these are all ideas that they'regoing to bring forward but are theybringing them in too lateit's been called motorsport from doingthat well I think a penalty system wasto me surprising that they were able todo it or are going to be able to do fourfours a sieve and I figured it wouldhave to be something that comes with anew release I thought it would be toobig of a thing to do so we'll have tosee if they do it well it's a verydifficult thing to do properly as we'veseen from when it doesn't work it can bevery frustrating but it's encouraging itI mean I know these guys who work at tointend who are very passionate about itand they aren't just after maximumamounts of sales and all that I thinkmost of the faults is probably withMicrosoft for pushing them to thatyearly yearly schedule so you knowobviously it's not always the fault ofthe developer it's often the publisherand the company that owns them that areyou know to blame for some of thesethings yeahoh so like you know we open thisconversation with money talking aboutthe fact that he come in so farwith a will you now steered away from itmuddy so let's talk about theexperiences that you have on other gameshave you ever found difficulties we'vetrying to make the setup or have theupdates on their games been a lotsmoother like what's your perspective ongames outside of force it in so there'sonly one game that I haven't enjoyed theforce feedback on and that wasn'tbecause I haven't enjoyed the necessaryfor severe was the length of time Ineeded to set it up and that was theoriginal project cars and you gounderstand that comes from me at a timethat was a small independent developer Igave that game back three days after Ibought it becauseand I put out a scathing review becauseI was like I'm not paying to sit downfor hours on endto calibrate a wheel per car and thatwas what you had to do project cars onejumped into assetto corsa set of coursesbrilliant absolutely brilliant I'venever had any trouble understandingwhat's going on in a set of Corsa onXbox more so than project cars and theproject cars has got a better UI bettermultiplayer aspects better licensingsystem etc etc etc the one thing thatset of course it does better thanproject cars is corner entry grip whichI used to be able to fill in Forza 4also used to do that really well reallyreally well I could I know that you'resaying Devin you hated the originalfours of feedback but I've got so usedto it so used to it I would know wheremy car was what it was doing and how isbalanced whereas I don't now and that'sthe things that I'm it I'm getting meantto be getting through my will I can't dothat through my ass like a wheelie in acar I have to do that all through thewill and project cars it's a bit numb oncorner entry but the mid corner and theexit of corner on project cars - isamazingthe assetto corsa is by far the best simfor just racing experience for drivingaround a track and feeling the whole wayof the information coming through youwill is yeah that's the best one I saidI'd say yes so of course followed byproject cars - is the best for the wheeluser on on xbox I mean when they've atdone any updates it's never taken awayany of the feeling of where I am on thatwheel and be understanding that I've gotof it and to set them up fairly simpleto be fair yeah I agree with the stateof course of feeling the bestI find the at least on my wheel theforce feedback on project cars a littlebit jerky at times but on a sailor coreso it's very very smooth and yeah but Ireally don't mind the feeling of projectcars it's just if you like go fromplaying quite a lot of assets and thengo back to project carsit's gonna feel quite weird but you getused to it pretty quickly once you'vedone it it's the corner entry that'sweird isn't it it's corner entry iseverything else is fine it's thebreak-in for corner entry I find onproject cars - is that yeah I find whenI come back if I come back to projectcars after a while I find it startsmessing up on corner entry quite a lotyeah because it's it's more aboutlistening on project cars - you'relistening for tire squirrel more so thanin the other game and to find out whenyou're on the the limit of grip the oncorner entry not an exit or mid but it'sso funny that you say that and becauseon forever had vibration on thecontroller it's just something that Ialways resented having I used to find oroff-putting so for me I I alwayslistened as to how the car is doing andthat's what guides me and it's funnybecause I've touched on it with Devon inprevious episodes but like me havinglike a whole year out of forza and thencoming back to force a 7 lot within thelast couple of months I noticed I startlooking at the game differently now likeI'm constantly racing with either thewill like the cockpit view or the bonnetview because I'm now chasing a sense ofimmersion that I just need like to evenenjoy the game now and it's like I'mkind of on that stepping stone now interms of like okay I can't just treatthe game as what I used to before it hasto be a lot more engaging for me it hasto like really persuade me into likethat sense of immersion and now it'slike I can see six months down the lineI'm probably I'm gonna get a willgetting one's never been high up mypriority list just because in terms ofwhat I'd put my disposable income on interms of bills family house blah blahblah but it's like you know with thelikes of how product cost twos go in aset of course or as you mentioned andthen I'm pretty sure it's gonna beanother version of a set of coursealright know there's some of yourspeaking in compensation shouldn't becoming to console you know company's notcoming - yeah but that is an amazingyourself I've played that I have theaccess that is the best sim I've playedwithout shadow a doubt it's it's greateven at this low level that is currentlyon I mean so what I'm hearing from youJohn is that you'd like to get a sim rigand a sitting and a wheel etc but it'sjust that it's the cost so the cheapestway into a decent feeling cymraeg iswhat I said to to us Mellish is a playseat challenge which is a fold upbasically it's almost the deck chair butit's got a racing chair in it fold upone ratio that's 150 quid I think andthat gives you the seat and the thingfor the the wheel to stand on and thenyou can get a second end Logitech G 920which is a very capable wheel that'swhat you use in it Devon yep verycapable I've had this wheel myself I'veraced with Devon and project cars toowith it and other than the fact it's saya cog drive wheel so it's a little bitnotchy in itself in its own constructionit feels a little bit notchy compared tomaybe the more expensive TX race wheeland then the far more expensive phoneticthat I run currently it's a greatentry-level wheel and if it's just thatlevel of immersion you're hunting thatis the best way to get it mate it'sgoing to be about 300 quid investmentbut once you've done that investmentthat that G 20 G 920 will also work onPC I believeso you've got a a a will that will workon PC and Xbox and you've got a seatthat you can fold up and get other waythe kids in the family I appreciate themtips because I think my future withplaying the game I come back to fours a90 percent because I mean Jaso likelet's just be clear I don't think Iwould have bothered getting 407 if itwent for that reason and even so likeI'm starting to get into competing againwe're doing business stuff as wellba looking forward when I see videosthat Devon does on project cars - orGran Turismo now the same with yourselfI'm likereally need to tap into these othergames like because force is just notcutting it for me I'm still hopeful youknow they're making the updates for areason they're trying to improve thegame I think this is just an incrediblydamp patch that's going on andunfortunately it's putting a lot ofplayers off in the meantime I meanpeople think I'm bashing Forza I'mtrying not to bash for that I've lovedForza since Forza 5 I've bought everyUltimate Edition that there is anybodyeven bought for the horizon for and I'mnot horizon for but horizon play our boyfor the experience and the fact that Ilike before the franchise but I don'tlike it currently do you know I mean Iliked it I don't like it currently Iwant to like it again I'm probably notgonna buy for the right straight off thebat i pre-ordered for the 7 I'm probablynot gonna buy for the right straight offthe bat and it as a in a livestreamearlier I've seen only buy an xbox fortwo gamesthat sounds very but small-minded butthat's me I've got a PC for other stuffI buy an Xbox or two games and those twogames are Halo em Forza if I don't yeahI've got four is it just for I've gotXbox just for Forza 6exactly exactly right so that's all whata lot of people do if you start ruiningthe franchise how many people were gonnajust go Joe what I'll just not botherbuying an Xbox and if it comes out I'llmight pick up on PC yeah that's a grouppoint actually and I think we might haveto leave it there because I think we'requite close to time but I feel like thisis a discussion that we're gonna touchon again muddy would definitely have tohave you on listening yeah absolutelyand everyone listening we'd love to hearyour feedback as well so please do postcomments be on youtube or on twitter oron our soundcloud page you can find uswe have hash tag living room races sothat's the official hashtag buy apodcast but and had the pleasure ofspeaking alongside my Jo saw compadredev and once again as well as specialguest to us muddy gamers thank you verymuch for listening yeahthank you for being here muddy highlyappreciates it and the same to youDevlin thank you for being hereno problem no problem at all still hereI don't think he's here anymore I meanthese yogurt spots and big things arestopped in talking this should go in theblooper reel but thanks again everyonefor listening and we'll catch you in thenext episode

Welcome everyone to the first podcast uploaded to my channel! Today JSR John and I are joined by Muddygamer, a long time wheel user, to discuss why the wheel updates have driven him away from Forza (pun intended).

•Support Muddy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH55RufiWnlhliVzNtrX3IA

•Follow the podcast on Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/living-room-racers/wheel-updates-causing-heartache-in-forza-living-room-racers-podcast-3

►All wheel gameplay done with my Logitech G920 and, where applicable, Logitech Driving Force Shifter, courtesy of Logitech SA.

►Wheel & Shifter neatly housed on my Wheel Stand Pro stand and RGS Module courtesy of Wheel Stand Pro: http://www.wheelstandpro.com/products/wheel-stand-pro-for-logitech-g29g920g27g25-racing-wheel–rgs—deluxe-v2

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